29: Kratom. It May Be Legal But is it Safe

Steven Ginsburg: 0:00

It's causing absolute unmanageability in families' lives, it's breaking up marriages, it's taking parents away from their children, and it must be treated with the utmost care and caution.

Steve Coughran: 0:11

This is the Addiction Recovery Podcast with Steven T Ginsburg, founder of Restore Detox Centers in sunny California. Enjoy your experience. The other day, Steven, you sent me a text and you said the next episode we do is going to be on kratom. And I was like what the heck is kratom? So I Google it. The first post says kratom is this natural herb. It has a lot of healing effects and benefits for people. The next post says kratom is dangerous, has a lot of harmful effects. So I looked it up on WebMD and here's the definition. I'm going to read it verbatim here Kratom is a native tree to Southeast Asia.

Steve Coughran: 0:51

The leaves contain a chemical which works like opioids, such as morphine. People commonly use kratom for withdrawal from heroin, morphine and other opioid drugs, as well as cough, depression, anxiety and many other conditions, but there is no good scientific evidence to support these uses. Using Kratom can also be unsafe. Kratom is banned in some states and countries due to serious safety concerns. The US FDA has warned consumers to avoid using products containing Kratom. Okay, steve, and your turn, because you have firsthand experience in this world. What are you seeing with Kratom and what do you know about it?

Steven Ginsburg: 1:34

Steve, thank you.

Steven Ginsburg: 1:35

Thank you for hearing me and for pivoting and allowing this to be the focus, because I'm tired of seeing it.

Steven Ginsburg: 1:41

I've had it and I am watching person after person get swept up with this product that can be bought over the counter, that can be bought at health food stores, that can be bought at gas stations and 7-Elevens in these drinks, and they are getting wildly hooked on it, just like people get wildly hooked on painkillers and opioids, and they are getting to a point where they have to come in to see us at Restore and we're having to medically detox them from this very substance that is offered over the counter and at gas stations and 7-Elevens.

Steven Ginsburg: 2:19

And it is having the same sort of and cycle of withdrawals that people who are addicted to Vicodin and Xanax and pain relievers are having and heroin. And it's a huge priority to get the information out. It's a huge priority to let people know this is not a substance that's going to provide anything that's any good, and I don't care what the information says, I'm seeing it firsthand. The fallout is monumental. It's causing absolute unmanageability in families' lives, it's breaking up marriages, it's taking parents away from their children, and it must be treated with the utmost care and caution.

Steve Coughran: 2:58

So if there's such harmful effects, I mean why is it not banned in more states? I mean it's crazy that you could go and buy this over the counter and I mean why is it not banned in more states? I mean it's crazy that you could go and buy this over the counter and I mean I'm assuming kids can just go there. Is it like 18 and older or anybody could buy it?

Steven Ginsburg: 3:13

I believe that there's a sort of a gray area there. I don't think they're going to necessarily stop a kid from buying it, and I think that's unfortunate. I think that you're going to see regulations tighten up as there's more and more fallout. But I think that's unfortunate. I think that you're going to see regulations tighten up as there's more and more fallout. But I'll tell you, you know, there's a lot of things you can just go and buy that are detrimental. I mean, we can all go buy alcohol anytime we want, and there's plenty of detriment from alcohol. This is certainly in that vein and in that category. And here we are, and it's to the point where it's time for me to send out a text and be like hey, man, we've got to talk about this, because that should tell you, you know, I'm in a six bed facility. Right, we've got a six bed facility. If I'm seeing enough people land in a bed, and this is what they're landing in the bed from, we need an episode for it. And here we are.

Steve Coughran: 4:02

Yeah, I mean, and it's crazy, it's like how do people even stay in touch with all the harmful things that exist out there in the market? I mean it's just nuts to me.

Steven Ginsburg: 4:14

It is. It's a cautionary tale. I am hopeful and hoping that you know starfish story day at a time, person at a time, podcast at a time we're able to make impact. Maybe someone that knows someone that knows someone will hear this and maybe some decision maker will reach out to us and we can get plugged in and do preventative talks or provide more information. But you know, for the heck of it, if you're just thinking, uh, I think I'll try this drink it's got kratom in it, maybe, maybe they heard about this or they heard this episode and they're like you know, I'm actually not going to buy that drink.

Steve Coughran: 4:47

Exactly.

Steven Ginsburg: 4:48

There's been some tremendous fall from it, and to me that's good enough.

Steve Coughran: 4:51

Yeah, just spreading the word. I mean all it takes is spread the word to somebody else. I'll spread it to somebody else, but this information has to get out there because you may be consuming and digesting these chemicals and you have no clue that it can lead you down a very slippery slope. And I mean, like you've talked about, sometimes for people all it takes is one drink, one hit, one smoke, one puff, whatever it is, and your life can drastically change. It can lead to divorce, it can lead to losing a kid, it can lead to divorce, it can lead to losing a kid, it can lead to incarceration, it can lead to you losing a job, but you don't think that at the time. I mean you may think, come on, it's just a drink, right? I mean it's just a over-the-counter drink that I buy at the local grocery store, wherever you get this stuff, and little do you know that it can lead not only to devastating effects from this specific chemical, but it can open the door to things that you definitely don't want to open the door to.

Steven Ginsburg: 5:45

Steve, I will tell you firsthand with the individuals we've helped and we are honored and happy to help them, and I just ran into one of them at the gym the other day and, praise God, the individual is still doing very, very well. But he was remarking to me how painful it was physically and mentally when he was detoxing from it and that he could not imagine not being at a facility of our sort under a doctor's care and trying to stop drinking that drink which, by the way, at that point when we got to him, he was drinking 15 or 16 drinks a day that had Kratom in it on a daily basis, and those can run from $4 to $7 a pop. That was what his daily habit was like.

Steve Coughran: 6:28

That's nuts. And you know what's crazy to me, steven. I mean think back on the days when we went to high school, which wasn't too long ago. It's not like we're that old, but back in the day it was like weed, some booze. A lot of time is what? What is it? Three, two beer. I don't even know what. It is right, but it's the stuff you used to get at a gas station and you'd have to drink like 14 of them just to get a buzz.

Steve Coughran: 6:54

But that's what was really prevalent in the school that I went to. Every once in a while you heard of kids doing Coke and it's like, wow, they're doing Coke or this person's doing acid. But it wasn't super prevalent, at least in the area that I grew up in. Maybe I was just protected from, you know, being in those circles, I'm sure it was a lot more present than I was aware of. But it just seems like nowadays there's fentanyl and then now there's kratom and there's like e-cigarettes and there's. I mean, there's all this stuff out there and it just seems like there's always this new thing, new chemical that is like silently creeping in to our kids' lives and to our lives and it's just wreaking havoc on so many lives and it's just so disappointing and discouraging at times.

Steven Ginsburg: 7:36

Yeah, so it's a shame, and what you're speaking on helps me to think immediately. The fact that like this is about revenue, this is about producing consumers. This is about hey, this feels good when I drink this. Hey, this is a relief, I'm going back for that again. I'm going to grab one of these again before I start my day. Then suddenly I'm going to grab one of these in the middle of the day. I start my day. Then suddenly I'm going to grab one of these in the middle of the day. Then suddenly I'm going to grab one of these drinks at the end of the day. Then suddenly I'm ordering a case of these drinks online and Amazon.

Steven Ginsburg: 8:06

Then suddenly I roll up to a treatment center in Poway on a hill and I'm like dude, get your doctor. I can't stop drinking these drinks. My wife won't talk to me anymore. This is the progression of it, and we've got to be aware. We've got to use our discernment and realize what is happening out there in the marketplace. We're not going to get sidebarred, okay, but just very quickly. I believe this nation and this world is heading towards a place where they're going to literally legalize everything, and this is part of the sneak preview of how awful that movie is going to be and we've got to take it upon ourselves to be aware of what we are ingesting and consuming, what it's made from and of, and what it can and can't do, and reach out and get more information and prepare our kids and prepare our spouses, and prepare our neighbors and friends and ourselves and realize we are up against it.

Steve Coughran: 9:03

No, I agree, and let's not get political here. But let me just point out something, because it doesn't matter which side you vote, but the reality of it is leaders are readers and I was telling my son that the other day he was telling me about how he went up to his room and he read his book for 30 minutes by himself, without us even saying anything. I was like good job, max. I think that's amazing. I said leaders are readers, readers are leaders. It goes both ways.

Steve Coughran: 9:27

But I think the trend is if you numb the people, if you numb their brains, so they're not reading, they're not leading and they're just going through the motions in life, you can easily control and manipulate people and I'm not saying every leader out there or political leaders are all out to manipulate us.

Steve Coughran: 9:45

But if we're walking around like zombies because we're so numbed up to these legalized drugs, like you said, keep people high and then they're not going to step up, they're not going to speak out, and I just think it can be a really dangerous thing for our nation, especially when you look at the geopolitical environment out there in the world. There are countries and other organizations out there that want to harm us and if we're not on top of our game, if we're not focusing and investing in our intellect and our spiritual nature and everything else, these things could creep in and they can really have a negative impact, not just on ourselves as individuals, but on our families, which rolls up to our communities, which rolls up to our nation, and et cetera, et cetera. What are your thoughts on that?

Steven Ginsburg: 10:31

a million percent, yes, and again, we don't have any hill to die on where any politics are concerned. We want to help people be informed, be safe, realize there's hope and realize there's a solution. Nicole and I love Amazon, we lean on Amazon, we live on Amazon. Amazon's terrific. You can just order Kratom on Amazon. That's not Amazon's fault.

Steven Ginsburg: 10:53

But I want the people who order Kratom to know what it does and that people get wildly addicted to it and that it creates an opioid and a heroin-like withdrawal and that you could need medical attention and facilitation and help in getting off of Kratom. If you don't know that, going in and you start using Kratom and you like Kratom and you're drinking Kratom early and often it's on You're not going to be able to stop physically on your own. You will go through withdrawal, you could seize, you could have a stroke, you could die. And that's where we need information, because Amazon's not doing anything wrong. They are what A marketplace, just like people that provide alcohol. They are what A marketplace and then we are marketed to and we are the ones who are marketed and we are the consumers and we have a responsibility as consumers.

Steven Ginsburg: 11:44

So my voice is this Be a responsible consumer. Hear us on this. You've got questions. Do not threaten me with a good time. Hit us up and let's talk about it. I want to know about this Kratom. I drink Kratom every once in a while. Tell me about it, steven. I'd be happy to, even if I've never met you in my life and even if I never speak to you again, because if that keeps you from going further with it or helps you keep an eye on, okay, I'm having one a week.

Steve Coughran: 12:13

If I go up to two or three or four a week, I'm going to look at really, and we can't hide behind labels or claims or whatever that may misguide us. Because, look, you may trust in this label that says it's an herbal remedy. It comes from a leaf in Southeast Asia, so what's the harm in it? And I think having that discernment and understanding exactly what we're talking about is really critical. So, steven, it's been great to hear your expertise and it's expertise from the trenches, like you're seeing individuals who are struggling with this. So I love your perspective that you shared and, if you're listening to Steven's point, you can hit us up at any point. Hello at restoredetoxcenters. com Just shoot us an email. If you have a question, just ask us the question. If you need support, reach out. We'd love to hear from you. So, steven, great to be with you today on this episode. I learned a lot about Kratom. I didn't even know about this, you know, just a few days ago, so I appreciate us doing this together.

Steven Ginsburg: 13:09

Steve, thank you. Thank you for hearing me, thank you for providing an avenue where we can verbalize and speak to the issue that I'm seeing, and thank you for being a part, as always, of the solution. Everyone, stay safe, stay sober, know there's hope where all things are concerned, and let's stay focused today on the fact that knowledge is our power. God bless you all. Thank you so much.