Steve Coughran: 0:00

Steven, it's good to be back with you. My brother, I am so curious. What's on the top of your mind? Look, folks, we have these podcast episodes already planned out. But just a few minutes ago, right before I was about to hit the record button, steven said Steve, I want to just throw out the topic. I have something else that's on the top of my mind, on my heart, and I want to hear from you, steven, what's going on.

Steven Ginsburg: 0:22

My brother, Steve, thank you very much. Thank you for your flexibility and for allowing this format and this forum to be what it is, which is something that is real, life and live and tangible, and to make impact, because the subject is so critical. And one of the things you know, steve, is that we have the blessing and the privilege of having a team at Restore, a team that is all in recovery, and that is a gift and that is something very often that is rare in this field of medical detox and residential treatment. And having a team that is comprised of recovering addicts and alcoholics means that you also have a team that can be susceptible to the very positive disease and it's never at anyone's expense. But sometimes one of the last elements of service someone can do for us as the individual in recovery, or for people that are looking at recovery in general, is through their own trials and tribulations. That's the last bit of service they do until they get back on track again, and we had a team member relapse today, which was just absolutely devastating. And, steve, you know Steve has been to restore. Steve has been a group at restore. Steve knows the entire team at restore. Steve is very ingrained at restore so he knows team members to us, our family, and we love our family and we don't shoot our wounded.

Steven Ginsburg: 1:48

But this disease that I suffer from, that the team at Restore suffers from, that this nation and the world suffers from, this disease is cunning, baffling and powerful, and there are no exceptions. And this disease is in relentless pursuit of all of us. And what happened to my team member could very well or just as likely, happen to me and can happen to anyone in early onset sobriety or in long-term sobriety. And I would be failing myself and everyone if I didn't immediately pivot and turn to you and say, hey, we need to talk about this and we need to focus on this, not the least of which and it brings me right to the point, and then I'm going to give this back to you in a moment here None of us are above the relentless pursuit of this disease.

Steven Ginsburg: 2:41

This disease never takes a day off. This disease is never complacent in its pursuit of us. This disease is never sitting back and keeping stats and thinking. You ,S teven has been to so many meetings and he said so many prayers and he's helped so many people and he's worked so many steps. I'm going to leave Stephen alone today, my disease and nobody who suffers from this disease. No disease rolls like that. It is relentless, nonstop pursuit. So we must be in relentless intentional pursuit of our program and this team member God bless their souls and the team member is alive, thank goodness, and safe. But their program was suffering. Their program was suffering from complacency, their eye was not on the prize and they were not in relentless pursuit of their sobriety and the relapse was occurring. And now relapse has come. And here we are and I felt I must lead with that, share that with you and have that be what we talk on today.

Steve Coughran: 3:38

Yeah, no, I mean, first of all, I don't even know what to say, because you know that I love the restore team. I love what you're all about, man. I've been to the house multiple times and you know. So, yeah, the team is very near and dear and it's just I don't know what to say. Like I guess I'll just add on to what you already said where this is, this relentless disease. I mean it's crazy that you can't ever let up in. You know, when we have these conversations. We've done a lot of episodes together and it's almost like somebody could listen to the first episode and then the third episode and then the eighth episode, and it's almost like we say the same thing where it's like okay, work the program, work the program.

Steve Coughran: 4:22

Follow the steps. And I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's just like the simplicity of the way, or you know, like you said, we just become complacent, but like what? Is it where it's like? Okay, I'm going to outline exactly what you need to do. This is exactly what you need to do to stay sober, but then something breaks down, and what?

Steven Ginsburg: 4:46

And you are so spot on and I'll tell you where God's hand is on it and where there's real irony and why there's real value that we're doing this like this. The very team member who relapsed after that team member had been privy to a good number of my groups. They said to me you know what I'm realizing? Your group is the same every time. You just find a different avenue to pursue that same group time in and time out, again and again. And how right they were and how right you are and what you just said. And all I'm doing is regurgitating and repeating what has been so freely given to me. It is a process, it is a program, it is a recipe and a blueprint and a design for living. It's outlined in the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous. It's done with a sponsor, it's done through the 12 steps and here's what goes on Fundamentally there's a conception of a power greater than ourselves, there's an individual knowledge of the steps in our life.

Steven Ginsburg: 5:43

That's a sponsor. There's coming together for meetings that diffuses our built-in forgetter, and then we work the 12 steps, all 12 of them, and then all 12 steps work in our lives and then we are of service. Those are the five things that comprise the elements of a program of sobriety. And what happens is one or more of those elements goes by the wayside, or they all go by the wayside, and then you are in prelapse, and then it is not a matter of if you relapse, it is a matter of when you relapse. And that is just how it goes Every time, every single solitary time. So what do we do? We constantly regroup, re-up, redo inventory on ourselves. I know my last meeting was three hours ago. If it takes me a minute to know when my last meeting was, it has been too long since my last meeting. I was on the phone with my sponsor an hour ago. If I don't know when I last talked to my sponsor, it's been too long since I've talked to my sponsor. I've worked all 12 steps, but step 10 is present in my life today. Step 10 is continue to take personal inventory and when wrong, promptly admit it.

Steven Ginsburg: 6:53

Was I of service? Today I was. I was of service at my own group. I have gone over what we've gone over, but I must because I'm not in a bad way, I'm triggering in a good way, because that could happen to me and that did happen to me. I gave up 12 years of sobriety and, by God's grace and mercy, a day at a time. I'm coming up on 20 years and I want anyone who's out there who's suffering to hear me. Well, there is a solution, there is hope, but this psychic change that occurs that takes us away from this disease, that tells us we don't have a disease, this psychic change that occurs happens through the work in this fellowship and the fellowships of 12 step and through the 12 steps and with all the elements we've mattered, we've mentioned, and that is the way it is done, a day at a time, and all we have to do is deal with the day at hand.

Steve Coughran: 7:38

Yeah, no, I love that. And you know, what's interesting is that I studied the scriptures. So, like, every morning I wake up and I commit a certain amount of time Usually it's about a half hour to reading the scriptures of the Bible. And you know, recently in my studies I've really been thinking about like the, the rise of man and the destruction of man, right, and I say man generally, man, woman, right Combined, and really it comes down to like this pride cycle, and so if you think about it, it's like, okay, we're living our life's right, right, we call it, we're being righteous, right, we're following the natural laws, the eternal laws, the biblical laws of life and, as a result, because we're living right, we're following these patterns, and we can relate this to the steps as well, you know. So, like you're following the steps, things are going well and guess what? Naturally you're blessed. Right, I believe in God, I know you believe in God. So, like I believe in blessings from God. But even if you don't believe in God, like you do the right things and guess what, you get rewards. So you get blessings. And then you get blessings, and what comes along with those blessings is prosperity, right, so you start, you're more successful in your job, you're more successful in your marriage and your other relationships. You started doing pretty well and you started thinking to yourself huh, I got this, like I'm, I'm pretty sweet, like look, like I'm a hard worker, and you start saying I, I did this, I built this company. I mean, think about how many people out there are like, oh, I'm a self-made millionaire. It's like okay, right, like I did this all myself, I built the company myself.

Steve Coughran: 9:14

And so then what creeps in is pride. Right, because we're prosperous. We think, oh, yeah, we did it all. We credit ourselves more than we probably should. So then pride leads to sin. And then that sin ultimately leads to pain. Right, because there's no happiness and wickedness and doing bad things. I mean sure, you get away with it for a little bit, but I just, I know, the first time I drank alcohol I felt like terrible. You know, I felt like I did this horrible thing. So you know you have sin. Then you have pain, and that pain usually causes humility.

Steve Coughran: 9:44

So you humble yourself and then after that, which leads to like repenting or changing, and then you become righteous again and then it's all over again, and so like if we relate this, whether it's from a religious standpoint or just the cycle that you see over and over again in the history books of the world is like is this? And Steven, I don't know if this relates to like what's on your heart, but like that's what I think of. Like we're doing well, we have the steps, we have the programming. Like I got this. I could slip a little bit, I can miss this meeting and then guess what? There's the downfall.

Steve Coughran: 10:20

There's the beginning of the downfall, and then you relapse, and then you humble yourself, and then you repeat all over again what are your thoughts on that?

Steven Ginsburg: 10:25

It's a perfect recap of exactly what we're talking about and so many things come up. Ego stands for edging God out and I often share with the community. I am not worried about us, myself or anyone else. When there's a good crisis going on, I'm very comfortable. It's when we're doing well, when everything's good, when it's all happening, there's tons of love, we're prosperous emotionally, financially, spiritually. It's when that complacency starts to creep in, like we think we've done something and we start to lose hold of that humility and the gift and the blessing of it, and we start to lose the intentional pursuit and the sense of urgency that we must do these things to maintain our remission. We are maintaining a daily remission through works. Faith without works is dead. So, to your point, when it's good and getting better and our best is getting better, that's when I want myself and others to really lean in, to really be on guard, to really be on watch, to really be of service and to continue to raise that bar and keep the enemy where the enemy belongs, firmly entrenched at the gate.

Steve Coughran: 11:42

Yeah, exactly, and I think we have it backwards in our heads Oftentimes. Think about, in business, when I'm working with other companies, when they're doing really well, when they have a lot of cash in the bank, when their profits are high, they say, look, I'm good right now, I don't need to go get a line of credit, or whatever it is. They're like I'm good, but when things turn down, then I'm going to need a line of credit. So it's just, our logic gets so backwards. It's like when I'm in trouble, I'm going to go get a line of credit.

Steve Coughran: 12:11

Well, guess what, trying to get a line of credit when you're in trouble is the worst possible time. Or somebody will say it backwards Like I will go to the gym when I have more energy and it's like, okay, you go to the gym to get more energy and more energy. So so backwards, where it's like I'll start saving when I have income, right. And it's like, well, you're never going to have any savings if you, you know. And it's just all backwards, right, I guess is what I'm trying to say. And I think like we can fall into that trap so easily, oh, easily.

Steven Ginsburg: 12:43

Completely. And this disease again to your point. It's cunning, baffling and powerful. And this disease is out telling people like myself on a daily basis you're good, you don't have a disease, you're not like the others, you can take a day off, you can take a meeting off, you don't have to do all 12 steps. And therein lies that place where it starts to creep in.

Steven Ginsburg: 13:09

Addiction and alcoholism is a parasitic, opportunistic infection, case in point with what we're examining today. And it's why you see where I get so convicted. And, by the way, it all applies to me. And that's where I feel really comfortable sharing because I am on guard 24 seven. I'm even more on guard today after what just occurred. And yet I'm the man who has to be on the phone with that team member and be like hey, I'll need you to tender your resignation.

Steven Ginsburg: 13:35

You know a team member at restore who's who has so this individual, in a matter of 48 hours behind drinking, crash their car. They are now in detox at another facility because we don't treat our team at Restore and they have to resign from their position because they can't offer what they don't have at Restore. You can't transmit something you haven't got at Restore. It doesn't mean we're turning our back on them. We'll be there with them and for them, and then maybe someday they can rejoin us in their tenure, if they rejoin the world in their sobriety. But this is what this disease does. It destroys what? Everything.

Steve Coughran: 14:12

Everything, yeah. So let me ask you this, because you have like a giant heart, stephen, and love doesn't necessarily mean you get walked all over or you just enable people. We've talked about that before. So how do you deal with a situation like this? What do you say to this team when you found out.

Steven Ginsburg: 14:29

I listened, I asked them what happened. I told the individual that I love them and that I'm glad they're safe. I'm glad they are getting sober. I need them to attend their resignation, that they should come up to group when they're ready to come up to group and sit in group and that we will be there with and for them and all things. And they need to rebuild their sobriety. That's exactly what I told them. I will enable the solution. I will not enable the disease.

Steve Coughran: 14:53

But I imagine they're in a pretty bad spot, especially if they crashed their car. They just lost their job. Their whole world's turned upside down. Is there a sense of humility and just remorse at this at this point or like, or? Where do you find people typically when they relapse? It's devastating.

Steven Ginsburg: 15:12

I mean, steve, we're all shook to the core, the team shook to the core, the alumni shook to the core. I mean, you understand the fabric. I wish anyone in the world who could listen to this. I wish they really knew what went on at Restore. But in a way, this is the way they can know what goes on at Restore. It's a family, and one of our own. This isn't John Smith from Idaho who relapsed. This is one of our team members who we love, adore, and they're out and thank goodness they're getting the help they need. And hey, how about this? Thank goodness this episode isn't. We have had someone die and that's what happens.

Steven Ginsburg: 15:49

This thing is fatal Death in institutions. Well, the individual right now is in an institution, so it is holding true. So we are shook to the core, but we will love on them and we never shoot our wounded. And we will be about the solution and we will be about the footwork, but we never enable the disease. And there are consequences for all of our actions. And, by the way, here's the important thing for me this could happen to me. This could happen to me If, what? If I have faith without works, if I let up on my footwork. Today, my disease will come and take me again Again. I'm coming up on 20 years a day at a time. Let me tell you I am super duper Uber DEF CON 12,000 on watch for my disease today, as I had a day closer towards that anniversary?

Steve Coughran: 16:34

Yeah, Let me ask you this you know oftentimes like thoughts precede actions, and I mean, do you think from like your experience and your experience talking with other people in your community, does it start with a thought? Do you think where somebody thinks you know what, yes, Maybe I want to drink, and then like no, no, no, fight that away. And then like, well, maybe it's not so bad. And then it comes back and it's stronger and stronger. Or do you think some people, like they just like break down one day and they're like you know what Screw it Like is it gradual or can it be sudden, Like strike?

Steven Ginsburg: 17:09

I hate that My answer is going to be both, but it's the truth. Sometimes it's gradual and it's this teeny, tiny little thing and you don't turn yourself in Like it's like, I wonder if, like I could have a glass of wine. If you have that thought, you need to share that with your sponsor or with someone, for starters. And you don't, okay, the disease is like oh, that individual sat on that thought Interesting, what else can I put in their head? Sometimes that's the course. Sometimes it's like something catastrophic happens. Someone dies oh, by the way. Sometimes it's something like someone relapses, or sometimes it's like someone loses their job or something.

Steven Ginsburg: 17:50

I had an individual from a store that we treated who relapsed behind their iPhone breaking. That's a true story. And he's like I didn't want to go to the genius bar, so I went to the bar. I'm like that is bananas. Right, the disease is crazy. But when you don't have the footwork in place, when the fundamentals are not in place, it is written steep. There's no mental defense against that first drink or drug. There's no mental defense against that first drink or drug. But when the psychic change has occurred behind the footwork and when the program is in order. There is nothing in the world. We pull back from it, and this is all written in the textbook of the big book of Alcoholics and Non-Diabetic. We pull back from it like we would pull back from a hot flame. That response and reaction is behind work. The other response is behind a lack of work.

Steve Coughran: 18:47

It is about the work yeah, it's about the work I mean, and and that's just it.

Steven Ginsburg: 18:53

So simple, but like I'm complicated though, yeah it's simple, but I will tell you, I'm a complicated guy and I love that. I can always apply it to myself first, and I will and I do, and then I feel somewhat of a right to share with it and offer it. Just offer, not impose it. I will do my best to offer it to others.

Steve Coughran: 19:13

Steven, let me interrupt you, let me ask you this because it's kind of like when somebody gets divorced right, and especially somebody gets divorced in like a tight knit community or within a friend group, and people are like, oh my gosh, I did not see that coming. Can you believe that, like John is getting divorced or whatever, Susie is getting divorced? And then I think it's like our natural tendency to look within and then we go home like, hey, babe, are we good Like you know. Maybe now we start like bringing home flowers or like, hey, we need to step up our game, like we had no clue. Susie is very good.

Steve Coughran: 19:50

I mean what's kind of like the, the ripple effect throughout the community, like how do you deal with this? I imagine there's some communication that needs to be had with the restore team, with the community, with just yourself. Like going home to your sweet wife, like what do you do from here, Steven?

Steven Ginsburg: 20:09

So great Total validation of the relationship you and I have, how much time you and I have spent together and how much time you spent at restore. And that's my very, very wrong complimenting you Like you're so ingrained which I love about you, so like I'm sure you're pretty aware of what we'll be about tomorrow. I'm sure you've got that one all set up your head. Uh, this call is coming 45 minutes to an hour after the event that just occurred and I and I've never snipered you on a topic before, but today I I did Like I wouldn't even. I was like I don't even want to tell you what I want to talk to you about. But I need you to trust me and like let's go. And here we are. And then the last thing I'll let you know is Arlo, who you know, who's on vacation right now with her family. I'm like, hey, we need an all staff as soon as you get back from your vacation.

Steven Ginsburg: 20:58

Because, Because, to your point, I'll get with the community tomorrow and then I will get with the team and all staff, because the team, which is comprised of all people in recovery, need to understand. Working at Restore that is not us working our program. We work our program separately from our work at Restore. At Restore, what we offer is the fundamental and the clinical and the logistical and linear solution to the community that we are coming alongside and to ourselves. We do the footwork and we work our individual program.

Steve Coughran: 21:31

I mean, imagine that the community is just like shooken up a little bit. I mean, I'm sure there's just really hot, right?

Steven Ginsburg: 21:36

I mean it's, it's gonna yes, it will. The information will be seeping out Even as we speak. Alumni will start to find out. The whole team will know. The whole team, by now, knows my phone will be blown up which it has been and we'll go about the business of stepping back there. But, for the grace of God, go us all and we will look at the solution and we will re-examine how critical and imperative it is for us to do our footwork behind a disease that tells all of us that we don't have a disease and has now cost a team member that we love their tenure and their position at Restore. Okay.

Steve Coughran: 22:12

Well, let's talk about the individual, because I imagine right now, like you mentioned earlier, they're dealing with a ton of grief and shame and guilt.

Steve Coughran: 22:25

I mean just like all the terrible feelings, and I mean I think of like Judas in the Bible, like he betrays Christ and then he goes and hangs himself because he can't like deal with with all that right, all the shame and whatnot. And so let's speak to this individual right now because, like, what kind of words of encouragement do you have for them? Because I mean, if it was me, probably the worst thing, even beyond crashing my car and losing my job, would be to disappoint you, Right, because that's how much respect I have for you and I'm sure this person feels the same thing. It's probably like dang, I let down a huge mentor in my life.

Steve Coughran: 23:07

I let him down. So speak a little bit of hope to this because, like you said, this can happen to anybody, including myself. Jeez, my heart goes out to them, my grace goes out to them and mercy, and I'm just like wow, like how sad you know there was not one disparaging word that I uttered to the person.

Steven Ginsburg: 23:31

They thought I was angry. I'm like, I'm not angry, I love you. I hate this disease. Know you are loved. Know that we've got your back. Know that we support you.

Steven Ginsburg: 23:39

You haven't burnt the bridge at restore. You know support you. You haven't burnt the bridge at Restore. You've got to get sober again. You've got to get healthy. Thank God you're alive. Thank God you didn't kill anyone with your car. Thank God we're not going to your memorial service. Come up to group just letting them know there's a place for them at that table and we can look all the other stuff. Could they resume their tenure someday at Restore? Of course they could, but there's many things they need to do first and we need to be supporting them in the many things they need to do first and love prevails over all of this. So I told the individual several times the truth, which is and I do love the people I work with and they know I love them because I tell them that I love them and I tell people that I work mostly the people that are in my life get told that by me that I love them because I do.

Steve Coughran: 24:27

Yeah, you do.

Steven Ginsburg: 24:28

And I think it's important to tell those people that and I tell you I love you all the time, because I do, and it's an important thing to say, especially when you mean it and especially when it needs to be heard. And so I told this individual time and time again you are loved and we love you, and I love you and we support you, and they don't need to be kicked when they're down. They need to be loved on. And again, we are enabling the solution. We are not enabling the disease, but the rest of that stuff will keep. What we've got to do right now is get back to basics and figure out what happened, what is the anatomy of this relapse, and then get into the solution and get back on track, and then we can look at resuming tenure and everything else, and they most likely would have a great living testimony to offer. Look, darla is the lead of our facility. You know Darla. We've had Darla on the show.

Steven Ginsburg: 25:15

Darla was a chronic relapser until she wasn't, and now here she is, two plus years sober. She is the lead of Restore. She is my right hand, right, you know full well. You worked very closely with Darla. My gosh, she's amazing. She's amazing, but she works an amazing program. It takes what it takes and the best is there for all of us, especially when we get that light at the end of the tunnel. That's where the hope is. But we've got to do our part. And then that relapse. I wouldn't trade my relapse for anything in the world, but the greatest thing that came out of the relapse I went through was that other people don't have to go through it. Other people don't have to go through it. I know and understand today what I need to do to not repeat that behavior and I can convey that to others and they need to trust the process.

Steve Coughran: 26:10

Yeah, I agree. I agree. I mean, what a great episode. And I'm glad that we're able to have these conversations just raw like uncut. Very grateful to you for it, Thank you.

Steven Ginsburg: 26:19

This is straight, raw, right, absolutely. But again, it's so important, it's so imperative, and this is an equal opportunist. From the penthouse to the outhouse, from a team member to a newcomer coming into the community, this disease is in relentless pursuit of us. But the solution is in relentless pursuit of the disease.

Steve Coughran: 26:37

Yeah, and that's why we do the show. That's why we're so passionate about you listening to the show and, like us, helping you and providing you resources. So you can reach out to us at any time, anytime. Hello at restore detox centerscom. You can shoot us an email. Maybe this episode really resonated with you. Maybe you know somebody who just relapsed. Maybe you're struggling with feelings You're like oh my gosh, I feel like I'm on the verge of relapse. We're here for you. That's what we do here with the show. So please reach out to us. Like I said, you can email us at any time. Also, if you want to learn more about the resources we have available, you can always learn more at RestoreDetoxCenterscom. Be sure to check that out. Steven, thank you so much for just like disrupting our entire plan, because I think this episode has been absolutely important and critical for those who are listening, and including myself. Thanks for the good reminder.

Steven Ginsburg: 27:35

Steve, thank you for your part and please, anyone out there suffering or in need in any way, shape or form, please always know we are here with you and for you in all things.